Much, Much Less than "Billion Dollar Bugs" [or] How to get those little annoying bugs fixed?
Posted 20 Feb 2002 at 21:36 UTC by SteveMallett
Release early, release often. For programmers that's written in
stone. However, how many non-programmers try (insert favourite
opensource/free OS here), fire up that puppy, & find that the
"released early" application they sat down to use is 'buggy'. While
it is freshmeat to you & I, to these new end-users, it's what they're
running away from. And guess what? There is currently no good
solution for this... those bugs are generally uninteresting and
newbies
don't program yet.
Think of how hard it is to convince someone to try something new. New
foods are hard to get someone to try. How about Linux. It looks like
it could taste bad! Now imagine, some guys or gals who came out to
your LUG's installfest or bought that shiny Mandrake box at the store
go to try kpresenter, or maybe j-pilot (no offense guys, those
just came to mind first) and it is less than impressive. In fact it's
'buggy'. But, now what? They made the switch, how do we make the
best of this?
What should these people do? Submit a bug report? While some
projects are good at handling bugs... some are better than others, to
be polite. Granted some people report bugs like I write code. Badly,
but hey they tried.
This is the last mile of open source and free software programming.
Delivering those annoying, pin-headed, mind-numbing bugs to the bug
graveyard. Would you fix them? Are you sure? They're really _not_
exciting. They aren't your personal itch.
I spoke about this problem with Massimo from the OpenOffice team while
at LinuxWorld. It was also addressed in Eric Raymond's session at LW.
Money doesn't solve the problem. Sun has it & guess what? It falls
on the developer's shoulders in the end. Guess what else? OpenOffice
doesn't exactly have a marketing team of 30 people monitoring customer
satisfaction. Surprised? How do bugs get fixed at M$? Handling
customer complaints/bugs reports. This isn't our thing. Yet.
So, how do we go that last mile? This isn't a derailing of bug
reporting. This is 'how do we ramp up bug reporting?"
Supposedly the community wants the desktop. You'll never find a
bigger market of picky, unable to program people on the planet than
your typical desktop user.
How will give these people what they want...
Problems solved.
One greatly contributing factor is the ease with which a person can
contribute bug reports. Often all that is shipped with an application
is an email address buried in a tarball, which is lost during rpm builds
and the like.
Mozilla did one of the best things it could to help with the bug
reporting by developing Bugzilla. It made it easy for the community to
contribute to bug reports, even though the vast majority cannot
contribute to the code base.
Another thing Mozilla has done well is to use the Talkback builds, which
report errors back to a central repository automatically. No user
intervention needed.
Mozilla's methods, as discribed above by ftobin, are technically sound,
but bugs also take on more forms than technical. Dumb GUI design,
missing features (not a bug per se, but you get the point), spelling
errors, etc.
I don't want to sound picky, but I also meant to encompass the none-
technical issues of bugs as well in the article.
Personally, I find a couple of real buddies (in addition to bug buddy,bugzilla, etc.) extremely attractive when faced with any breed of insect
infestation. Cursing is more fun in tandem, parellel, tag team, etc. Sometimes it even provokes thoughtful helpful discussion rather than
feelings of intense frustration.
What if, in addition to tried and true methods, ( such as et. al. above, tools which help users provide much of the detailed information the
developer's need to tackle tough elusive bugs) a project set up a user wiki space.
Advantages
Sometimes it takes several user reports to establish what the bug really looks like. If four or five users are recreating bugs and talking to
each other while interactively modifying their online bug reports if may be easier to get meaningful reports useful to new bug killers as well
as our busy grandmasters.
Users talking amongst themselves and sharing workarounds can often reduce the impact (and thus agitated emotional flames) on the
user
while waiting for someone to pick up the guantlet.
This will also start training the users in what is important in reporting bugs so that they can use tools such as bugzilla better.
Neophyte programmers can learn debugging and knock off the easiest ones by working interactively with the best users. Most trolls and
flamers will not hang around long when the better users delete them faster than they can type crap and insults in. Cowardly vandals
generally look for easy targets.
The FAQs and bug lists would tend to get updated by a healthy community of users.
The better neophyte programmers, with meaningful bug reports in hand, having tracked the bugs down to precise location and
consequences might enjoy the chance to work the developers and learn their methods. This will quickly sort out who is actually a
knowledgeable grandmaster and who happened to be standing in front of a camera. Within the programming community. This leaves our
public relations types to yakk at the press, while our hardcore software engineers train our masters to train our journeyers and interested
neophytes, eventually providing a larger pool of potential volunteers labor to spread the burden of training the next wave.
It is my opinion that the semi knowledgeable user that choose to adminster and maintain the wiki site will inevitably learn more about
gnu/linux/apache/perl/php/mySQL etc.
Disadvantages (Sorry, only a feeble effort here. I will play devil's advocate later if I have to develop more persuasive arguments
and
nobody else is interested in forwarding the holes in the scheme.
1rst step should be to setup an excellent how to set up the wiki sites. Resource requirements, detailed installation procedures,
administrater mutual support wiki, and caution the ambitious user that it takes a serious committment to community building and a
willing
to continuously monitor the action on the site on a periodic basis.
The younger computer literate crowd probably prefer the existing stuff, it is working well for them, I assume? Probably need to resort to
appealing to the older crowd who are just getting online to find out what all this internet nonsense is about. An anonymous guy
that can allegedly design an engine or wing for an SR71 using paper, FORTRAN, and Gould SEL, Dec VAX, or Cyber mainframe (say a
quarter of a
Pentium 4 or approximately a Pentium Dual?) sitting with twelve or twenty others and Kelly Johnson? CIA myth to deceive KGB?
in a room takes a while to convince that yakking and randomly dabbing
here and there can produce results when someone see enough of the proposed solution emerging to run off and complete it just for the
shear joy of creation. ..... right? Still, maybe he has heard the buzz and is still a bit pissed that instead of piggybacking his spaceplane
on a 747,
C5, XB70, SST, or supersonic equivalent and exploring the black yonder, the Blackbird he and a few others loved into existence is now
considered obsolete, retired, and still classified while still holding most airspeed records.
I know where I might scare up some guys like that from the late Apollo days (they are dropping fast though) and a guy who managed a 2
Billion jet engine rotor modernization program for one of the two big guys, he may or may not be interested. Pretty good retirement
location. I know where to find some other folks too. Certainly others here know techical people such as these as well. They would
require some serious handholding .... hence the administrator wiki site
to
show them in an immersive environment how it work. We might only graduate 5-10 percent to serious wiki site administrators, but our
software developers have better things to do than babysit linux servers, wikis, and users and every participant would be helpful. Good
training for future software developers too, need a lot of knowledge to continually fix, maintain, and use a development system loaded with
other people's buggy code.
It would help if we had some open/free business models to point at to assure them that this new hobby could potentially support itself or
grow into something.
Yep. Pretty feeble devil's advocate. I could come up with plenty more obstacles to discourage anyone feeling tempted if anyone is
interested. Gotta go. In the middle of getting an Oregon directory on http://www.wikipedia.com in shape to support my impending
membership drive .... assuming of course that these niggling doubts about the R&D involving full compliance with spirt of the GPL and
FDL are being addressed effectively somehow somewhere by someone. Their spirit appears pure but the pesky damn technical and legal
details are difficult!
Good news. If there is any serious interest in discussing this in detail in a wiki I am pretty sure the CEO of Bomis would support us
working in the business planning section of http://meta.wikipedia if we wanted to do some prototyping. We could get a prototype set
up
for the next bug rally and see how well it attracted users. Say .... I think I just downloaded gnutella 1.0 in response to some
encouragement .... never did installl it. The dependency list was a bit long to tackle home alone and instead I decided to browse
wikipedia a bit, put in some spacecraft data, and hit the sack early in preparation for the next day's study of wiki technology.
What the hell. I put a page at my meta.wikipedia workspace. You can add to the above, insert comments propose competing
concepts
for immediate community attention, whatever. It is an experiment. Maybe our inter open/free project supermob can spontaneously
organize a bit. Let us boldly go and find out. mirwin workspace
Wow! Almost forget to add the llink syntax. The editor there looks the same but the parser adds the link html.
Duh! Just noticed that I did not tell you what is in it for them. Smack! Bad forehead! I will tell you my guesses (preferably at my wiki
space above) if you tell yours and then we can go to sci.space.* and use the guesses to discuss it sufficiently to determine what they
really want out of the deal. Oh, by the way. Leave proprietary data at home, the site is theoretically FDL'd.
We get experienced wiki administrater trainee who have been around long enough to keep the anarchy at a productive wiki happy and
melee minimized. We get mathmatically literate people interested in using computers to do interesting things with a variety of real world
experience. Knowledge of Venn diagrams is required. They will do as they please just as we do. It will take some effort to initiate
productive and prosperous projects. Some or many will fail. It is the successful ones that we will reinforce as we choose.
Grgh! Added a section. Hey! I can cut & paste the addition into the wikispace I just loaded. Maybe I will check the spelling and test the
links while I am there. Later.
One obstacle to good handling of bugs -- and one that has been
mentioned before -- is the fact that many users just don't like to
report bugs to project maintainers. They'll complain on every forum
except the bug database.
Another problem is that, as SteveMallett pointed
out, a user's notion of a bug is quite different from a coder's
notion of a bug: "Linux is buggy. It doesn't boot up with a GUI."
Of course, since (as just mentioned) many users don't report such
things, most developers have no way of finding out.
A good solution to both of these problems may be to release a
program early, but also get the program to print a big fat warning
upon startup that says e.g.
For experienced programmers only. Do not try this
unless you know what you are
getting yourself into!
(In fact, it seems this is what Linus did in his initial announcement of the Linux kernel.) That'll stop the non-coders from spreading
all sorts of unflattering comments about open source software, while
not preventing useful input from developers.
Once the feedback from developers turns positive, the project can
then be released to the general public for beta testing. If a coder
likes a program, there's a good chance that the average user will
like it too -- after all, coders are humans too, they're just
different.
On the Warning Label idea...
That really isn't that bad an idea. It's like a "warning this food
product may contain nuts!" label. As long as you can turn the warning
msg off the first time you see it.
So, let's assume that now we have eliminated unqualified people
from hurting themselves and you with a "< beta" product that is
released early. Adoption of the Mozilla methodologies is a working
solution, maybe not optimal in each case, but it can work. No? Yes?
Next, how do you motivate programmers to fix uninteresting problems
with the program or add features that they personnally don't care
about (no personal itch)? I get the impression that, as in the
previous article tk pointed out above, annoying programmers with
endless requests is a poor idea, but is what happens now.
Remember these are things you don't care about, but users do.
ex) Reading their old 'word' docs (data formats), transferring old
bookmarks/email address books, having a "start my browser on this
page: " option, etc etc etc. These really aren't totally
unreasonable types of requests either. They're just boring.
Developers can run "unstable" if they want to get the
latest-and-greatest stuff. However, the average user can run "testing",
which gets packages from unstable after (2?) weeks in unstable without
major bugs. I think that's the best way to do it. If you want to reach
a diverse user base in a structured way, package your software for
debian.
Next, how do you motivate programmers to fix uninteresting problems
with the program or add features that they personnally don't care
about (no personal itch)?
Indeed a difficult question. I believe however that there aren't
that many `uninteresting' problems. As I said, coders are humans
like everyone else, and indeed there is a fair amount of
intersection between the concerns of users and those of coders. For example, I
too would like better support for Microsoft Word files under Linux
(though I don't receive that many Word documents to warrant starting
a new project). The difference is, of course, that I can solve
this problem myself if I want to -- if I ever get into a situation where I need to handle Word documents daily, I may just download
wvWare and
start hacking away on it.
Thus, I'll think that if there are enough developers interested in a
project, the developers themselves will help solve many of these mundane problems --
and at the end of the day, there won't be that many uninteresting
problems (as in, problems only Joe User care about) left to tackle, and the maintainer can take his own sweet
time to attend to them. That's better than the maintainer releasing a project
early to the public, and then having to tend to zillions of bug reports
at the same time.
(I may be wrong though...)
The Gnome project has found bug-buddy to be very helpful to get a steady
stream of basically useful bug reports.
Though it's still possible to write unhelpful reports with bug-buddy.
Our current challenge is recruiting enough people to help sort through
the reports, putting them in the correct places, marking duplicates,
marking fixed bugs etc.
More seriously, how about a script or pipeline or automatic routing or whatever it is called to have the mailing list manager create each
new bug report or comment sent in to an xml, html, or whatever file to submit to the wiki of choice. Usemod seems popular and there is
some kind of interwiki synchronization thingy at advogato.org. So a non wikipedia wiki developer monitoring the wikitech-l list
mentioned
anyway. It may have been in the context of it does not work anymore I am uncertain.
This duplicate site would seem easy enough to setup. If it attracts users then both mechanisms can be left in service. The tried and
true
linear time sychronized mailing (useful for public archival so neophytes can get up to speed easily with a bit of reading) and the chaotic
self organizing userwiki (useful to allow useful neophyte participation right away whenever the urge hits, also wikipedia has integrated
version tracking, pretty useful sometimes). A little garbage initially is no big deal. It will encourage the users to learn how to edit by
deleting the machine code routing stuff that slips through. The slow ones can see who is managing to delete nonsense and query them
for assistance until somebody decides to write a beginners (VIP, Executive, etc.) tour.
It will also be robust in the case of large scale virus panics. Since the user browser is logging into the central service and not receiving
email, those devestating sweeps that mow down vulnerable Windows users may not be a factor ..... a bit irrelevant to hardcore *nix
developers I guess. Still there are a few projects out developing for the Windows platform. Gives Windows users nice exposure to
open/free paradigm if they are helping manage user support for the Windows projects such as perl, ....? blank sorry oh yeah! Wikis were
developed on perl windows or ported quickly there or something. An open source userwiki that runs on Windows will allow Windows
Apache users to host the user community site independent of the developer machines and resources. The developers or apprentices can
log in via account like any user or anonymously, if they prefer, (as any user can as well) to get a candid snapshot of how things are really
going in the community and authentic buzz regarding the product.
That used to be called management by walking around.
Seemed to make my better bosses and colleagues itchy .... hehe.
[[user:mirwin]]
I'm a developer on Bugzilla, and we are currently in
a period of active development aimed at making Bugzilla more
customisable. One of the key components here is a front-end/back-end
separation via templatisation of the UI.
The advantage here is that you can have a template for the "bug entry"
script which is as hard-nosed and demanding, or as light and fluffy, as
you feel is necessary. You can have developer and end-user templates for
the same script.
Hopefully, projects with a Bugzilla set up will be able to produce a
"report your issues"-style template which encourages their users to
report their problems.
The problem then becomes that of the Mozilla project
- how do you deal with 200 incoming bug/problem reports a day? :-) We
certainly don't have a problem with people not telling us what they think...
Gerv
gerv For background see my previous posts in this dialogue.
If a userwiki automatically has the new reports copied into the database and the links placed into two lists, one for readonly access
(Honor system unless somebody feels like programming different, initially post notice at top. Revision control reports changes and
orginal
can be recovered if vandals or accidents happen.) and one for direct immediate markup, discussion, derision, amusement expressment,
alphabetizing, categorizing, speculating, whatever the evolving community can agree and enforce upon themselves however they choose
to organize ..... essence of wiki community ..... Mutual freedom and responsibiltiy. Let's have fun and enjoy this common space, I will
be me and you be you and we will figure out new rules or at least discuss the olds with them .... newcomers, strangers, aliens, outsiders,
others.
Notice that someone will probably create a priority list for wandering developers with his priorities at the top.
Someone else will write a script to automatically log in after 4 a.m. collective aggregate average time and randomize or reprioritize in
preparation for early morning wandering developers. It will be hilarious! Well worth getting up. The hell with Maxwell House, too much
caffiene is dangerious with tripping the light fantastic at the murky edges of known mental spaces.
Post a notice of a fix method of the top priority and watch the topsy turvy. Include a humerous warning that it probably has bugs and
needs some more work but a journeyer can probably take it from here. I will get back to it next week if I have the time. Keep your
committments and manage the expectations well .... some of these users may be working grant proposals or business plans or resumes
to take one last shot at improving their local space. Be careful. You want some things from these users after all and they are unlikely
to be interested in assisting you if no protocol for civilized behavior can negotiated. From no trust where, how?
It will accelerate the process if you write or point to some summaries of proposed local customs and the local wiki features. Point at a
sample healthy site that the users can understand or relate to or get some help. Wikipedia.com is building such a resource as we
speak. Drop in and wander around a bit. Check the entry on your favorite rock band. Ever wonder where Murphy's law originated?
Run the search at Wikipedia or go though technology, space technology, rocket sled. I found out working on this entry. Murphy is a
real person, he worked a few miles down the street from me separated by a decade or two. Amazing.
1. Get a simple wiki space running (hopefully on user/adminstraters dedicated server, find some money to buy and send them one if you
really want some results. That what I intend to do in a year or two. First I have to help get Wikipedia on track and get my own next
gravy train set up and help train several community subsets and superset access agents and convince them that an approach to tackle
several problems we encountered a couple of years ago in our methodology has been discovered and is currently being prototyped.
2. See if you can find somebody to write the script or configuration file or router or whatever the hell you decide to use to get editable
files
loaded automatically into your wiki from your report address so it integrates well with your project. It may be nothing more than echoing
to another mailing address provided by your wikiadmin/owner/founder/autocrat/whatever. It may involve doing the programming yourself.
Check back in a few months if you cannot find anyone to program it. I have some buddies that will do this for me when I ask nicely. It is
time to call in some favors and start creating grubstakes and tickets. Since I need this myself, if no one else
manages/produces/develops/post the necessary script I am going to get it done. I doubt that I will program it but you never know. I have
the books, equipment, experience, etc. Just not the specific particulars.
3. Edit your wiki for fun at least one a day. When satisfied that external users can find the FAQ and Fundamentals and draft local
etiquette guide and proposed ratifcation/negotiation/public discussion/debate/rules of engagement/whatever, then ....
4. Write a proposed mission statement and post it prominently. See Mission Statement on front page here. This statement probably
biased the direction the lcoal community has taken just a bit, so I think anyway. Many people here think it is no longer applicable to the
local community and dislike my personal experimentation methods. So what? Raph warned them. I warned them. The owner
has not excommunicated me by deleting my accounts. Despite the simulated cert war or Kelly Crusade my buddies
stood firm with against the Troll Overlords and now I am contributing, a bit. Maybe this seed will grow, who knows?
5. Accomodate diverse styles, opinions, deficiencies, etc. as collegially and effectively as possible. Be friendly. Chit chat about a
subject of interest to the other people if possible. Express appreciation of good ideas. Build on success, ignore failure. Everybody has
a bad hair day occasionally .... who should they talk for a morale boost if not their buddies at their local community? Moderation! Too
much exposure to depression leads to depression. Share some joy once in while and forget you problem of the moment if possible. A
toothache in America is just not as bad as being targeted by an American missile carrier 3 miles above (rise), 4 miles thataway (run), for
a scalar value of ... ?? 9+16 = x*x x=5 ? How long to hide if it arrives at mach 2?
You still here? Asking me to solve your problem in the forum of your choice rather than the one I proposed? Have you at least cut and
paste there ..... corrected a typo? I will be checking in there today. Yesterday was disappointing. ZERO, nada, zip, no initiative by
anybody but tk who also prefers his own methods. Cool! Hehe .... it was correct usage as I applied it in at least one location
in this thread. I added my opinion of the dragon book's explanation. Also a reference and colorful description that I saw somewhere
before and remembered by checking the picture out on my out of date edition.
6. Thing about how it is appropriate to make money off the site. Resources do not grow on trees, well not in the U.S. anyway. I mean
not that we use, they have to be put in plastic and marked 500 percent before suitable for consumption. If you do not need the
resources
then be sure to let your administrators know that you have deep pockets. I recommend caution with this approach. Simple math and
experience shows that if more comes in than goes out the pile grows, if more out it shrinks. With zero allocation responsibilites or
judgment or personal cost ..... Asymptotic? Consumption, not production. Consumers are O.K. (especially with electronic products),
active parasites consuming more than they produce are detrimental to the host.
7. Salt the mine. Be prepared to tackle the first few top bug priorities as per the apparent/alleged/instantenous user consensus
prioritization. Data management is their mutual collective responsibility but some signs of benefit from applied efforts is neccesary initial
investment to build morale if you wish the site to succeed. If you do not wish to the site to succeed then do not waste people's time.
Grumpy gray matter is extremely dangerous and we already have plenty around here.
8. Be flexible. If they are taking responsibility and doing the work let them do it their way. Presumably they learn from mistakes or they
would be attempting to abandon titanic Microsoft products. Try to keep the lifeboat within swimming distance. We have a diverse
passenger list here on planet Earth. The universe is watching!!! 12 Billion known sentient controlled camera systems on this planet
disregarding other species, it is not the sinkers in water that are dangerous. It is the ones behind you watching you push them under
while cackling "Let them eat cake."
9. I do not know. I have done this before. Only noticed a correlation between a couple of working systems a few weeks ago.
10. Your guess is as good as mine. Shall we do some science and experiment together?
I know what is in it for me.
Can you articulate for yourself and others what is in it for you?
If you prefer the clean version of the above, check the link provided in the previous post in a couple months.
Maybe a better version will be there, if it pleases me or my buddies to provide it. We may choose to run
off and make or beg for some money instead, or at least find somebody fun to play with while creating the future.
later, mirwin
Mozilla obviously doesn't have a problem of receiving too few bug
reports; the sheer quantity of duplicate reports attests to that.
Mozilla seems to have a different problem -- many bugs simply don't get
resolved. In fact, many never seem to even get assigned to anyone!
Bug
#40867, for example, is nearly 2 years old now, has 148 votes, is
marked with a "blocker" severity, and is still classified as
"NEW". Couldn't it at least be assigned to someone willing to take
responsibility for making sure it gets fixed? Even "simple" bugs like #82151
don't get fixed in a timely fashion. (Would it really be so hard to add
a simple test somewhere to fix this?)
Many bugs, especially the annoying little ones, get ignored completely
(whether posted on Bugzilla or not), or generate endless discussion
without progress. I've been ignoring annoying little bugs in Mozilla
for years, and I'm getting tired of it. I don't know how much longer I
can "keep the faith" when so many bugs never get fixed, and so many
others keep appearing at random in places where things used to work.
I've had newer versions of Mozilla break printing, crash on me randomly
(taking dozens of browser windows usually), and otherwise scream "buggy"
at me as a user.
As a developer, I'd love to help out with the code, but Mozilla is an
enormous and fast-moving target, which makes it almost impossible
to get up to speed in the limited free time I have -- and I've tried. A
million lines of code is a lot to contend with. Hell, I expressed
an interest in writing a telnet client module for Mozilla when it
was first released, and nobody responded. I never did learn what it
would take to do that, so I never have. Years after I made my offer to
work on such a feature, a request for
exactly that was eventually filed in Bugzilla, though I didn't discover
it until just now. I find it ironic that ChatZilla is in the core
Mozilla code, but a builtin handler for the standard telnet: URL form
generated no interest...
Meanwhile. how long should I continue to believe the same claims that
the latest
nightly is great and that 3-week-old version is crap? Why should I have
to reproduce a bug on a version less than a week old before a bug will
get even the slightest attention? Even when I do reproduce
a bug, it never seems to get resolved, so why bother? Hell, even if I
track
down the exact source code change where a bug was introduced,
it doesn't get fixed. (But duplicate reports show up.)
I've been a Mozilla (and "Open Source") supporter from the beginning, but
at this point, I don't know how much longer I can hold on. I think I'm
starting to feel JWZ's disillusionment with the project, and I don't
like that prospect. Look, I know that it's a big project and it's had a
lot of work to accomplish, but really. Four years? Even
starting from scratch, it should be in better shape by now, considering
how much time and effort has been poured into it...
why wiki?, posted 22 Feb 2002 at 20:23 UTC by Telsa »
(Master)
Mirwin, why do you keep on bringing up wiki in this? In my (very end-user)
experience, it's not an easy interface to get the hang of. We already
have a bunch of bug-tracking tools: debbugs, bugzilla, jitterbug (for
not losing patches, at least), GNATS, whatever sourceforge uses, and more.
There are several sites and apps which have step-through forms for people.
(bug-buddy has been mentioned; the XFree86 site has a "fill this in to
report a bug" form, and so on).
I wouldn't say any of those are overly intuitive (apologies, gerv :)),
but they have the virtue of being wide-spread and many of them are
usable offline. wiki is by its nature only useful if you have an
interactive web connection up, and that costs money for some of us
still. (Yes, this applies to several of the rest, though notably not
debbugs.)
I'd be very interested in any insight from the mozilla folks, since
they have long used bugzilla as a communications tool rather than a
"this is where you drop bugs, someone might mark it fixed later" thing.
And now every time I file a bug, it is instantly responded to by one of
a flock of volunteers who make it their business to do something with
it, even if it's to mark it a duplicate within ten minutes of my
entering it.
I have some suggestions on how to ramp up bug reporting, but I'm not
sure how useful they are. I'll add them when I have something a little
more organised to say.
Telsa Participatory users, some of these will emerge from intellectual sports as community leaders,
others as contributers of ..... What? I do not know until they decide to show us.
I do not know. How should we find out? I propose we experiment efficiently. This
does not require massive time or resources or skill.
Personally, I wish to find out if it is a new fundamental tool. If so, it may be a building block of potental vast utility.
We can synergistically help out a bunch of new people at Wikipedia doing serious R&D on FDL issues
and collaboration methods while we find out. What the hell? Shall we hack a bit and see what the
universe thinks?
It looks to me like we can set up functional user communities that could do a lot of the work currently being
done by experienced people that would serve to orient and help newcomers self educate. Maybe it will work, maybe not.
We could try a small prototype to gather some data.
It scales well if one can afford the computer nets and bandwidth. Many engineers/developers
can work on a specification one component each or they can all get intensely interested in a specific problem
and deal with the merge conflicts. It solves much of the problem with time lag/design divergence in concurrent engineering.
You stated that the interface is intimidating. I admit I found it bit so when I first encountered advogato. If it does not exist
somewhere, I invite you to (anyone) collaborate on a step-by-step user guide for total beginners who have been told over
the phone how to power up their computer (I assume it has a functional operating system).
later [[user:mirwin]]
mirwin - no offence, mate, but I am having trouble
seeing the relevance of your (rather long) post to what I said. I'm
extremely sceptical that a wiki is a better method of tracking bugs than
a dedicated bug tracking application.
deven said: "[bugs] generate endless discussion
without progress". You have come across one of the problems the
Mozilla project is still trying to cope with. Because our product ends
up in the hands of a lot of people, and because we have a very open bug
system and development process, people who have no capability or desire
to actually fix things pitch up and add their 2 cents to their favourite
bugs. More corrosively, it often gets to the point of abusing developers
when those bugs aren't fixed, and people have been discouraged from
working on the project because of this.
However, you can't have "many bugs simply don't get resolved" and
also "Mozilla is an enormous and fast-moving target". Saying that
"A million lines of code is a lot to contend with" is fallacious
- you don't need to understand it all, or even very much, to hack on it.
You can even hack on
Mozilla's front end without compiling anything. I started off fixing
one bug in some JavaScript and went from there. LXR is by far the best way to navigate
round the source code.
You say "I expressed an interest in writing a telnet client module
for Mozilla when it was first released, and nobody responded." What
sort of response were you after? "Yes, what a great idea"? For better or
for worse, things get done on Mozilla when people start doing them. Most
developers are buried in their own bugs. Mailing the last person to
check into a file and saying "I'm writing a telnet handler and I can't
work out how to do X. You know that file - can you tell me?" would
probably elicit a more concrete response than a question like "Is anyone
interested in a telnet:// implementation for Mozilla?".
As it happens, Mozilla does now handle telnet using Protozilla. All of the above
being said, in my guise as contributor-help, I'd
be happy to put you in touch with the right people if you are still
interested in making a proper telnet:// handler happen.
"Why should I have to reproduce a bug on a version less than a week
old before a bug will get even the slightest attention?". Less than
a week old is a bit strong, but because we don't cripple our nightly
builds, we often find people reporting bugs on very old ones. Also,
often our QA people see a bug report which could be a symptom of a
previously-fixed bug, and so ask for a reproduction.
This tends to happen more to people without the "editbugs" and "file
confirmed bugs" privileges, which you didn't have until a minute ago.
I, and other people in the bugs you quote, thank you a great deal for
your very useful help. In the case of the two bugs you quote, you do
seem to have suffered from poor bug ownership. Given that we've only got
the developers we've got, there's not much that can be done about this.
Apart from more people pitching in to help :-)
Gerv
Bear with me a moment while I fantasize about a solution approach.
Sorry Deven, I have to understand a problem or a solution before I can state it precisely or concisely easily.
No offence if you simply zip by without reading, happens all the time.
Steve is a genius. He did not ask us to track millions of bugs or fix everything right away. He asked us to fix a few easy ones.
For me an easy bug is when I have a diverse set of talent lined up with sufficient resources to do the job. The impatient users can watch
and learn from the tech team tag and often (in my experience) seem to enjoy the experience. How many Windows users have been on
an
asynchonous safari through the code with detailed tracking records of comments on associated talk pages and strategy arguments with
links to the project documentation? (I know, watch this ..... I think Telsa is a tech writer and there is something called an open source
writers group hanging around, plus anybody in the virtual safari environment can read and type even if they refuse to write well. Odd as it
may seem, some people who will not put forward their own stuff will kibitz a bit if they feel comfortable doing so. This can be helpful in
various ways. Sometimes this becomes useful cut and paste material and is used, sometimes merely tossed. It is what we keep that
counts, not what we throw away.
Bug tracking and nitty gritty detail is for the last elusive ones hiding in the kernal, not your own code. Your own code can be corrected
and then who cares about the bug? Besides that is what wiki brings to the table, it keeps all the records and our technical gurus, code
commanders, journeyers, apprentices and interested neopytes can focus on the code walkthroughs, debates, techniques, etc. One file
at a time on a journey though code and time. This is where the near instant scalabitlity becomes critical. There is no controlling this,
tens, hundreds or thousands may be evolving code, documentation, outlines, arguments, etc. or merely indexing, linking and writing
hiakus back and forth. The wiki technology enables this massive code walkthough and reverse engineering by keeping all the data. It
would be unrealistic to expect a central staff to do all the organization and task planning and tracking with this approach.
Obviously this implies some unit testing after somebody thinks the code works and is itching to compile it and have as their contribution
that they pushed the succesful compile button listed in the attribution database. Specifications for what the optimist thinks the file is
doing will need to be written and tied into whatever diagrams, tables or indexes somebody thinks will sort this mess out. We are heavy
into reverse engineering now. As the incorrect comments get logged and documentation started somebody will note the conceptual error
and we will have some collegial discussions to try to figure out what is going on. This will inevitably lead to people coming and going to
various files and commenting there in passing as they seek out the information. Finally some agreement on what the file is doing, the
documentation is drafted and somebody starts coding the unit tests.
Meanwhile we need to interest an entire set projects in our new grand project. A lot of verbage has flowed through advogato about
testing
frameworks. I understand the basic concept, we had a sim lab. We are after a framework that is flexible enough to eventually let us run
multiple versions of the code originating in different wiki space and compare them for correctness. Eventually we want stable code
reporting conflicts so that the newly introduced bug can be backed out ...... or if sufficient diversity and teams have arisen to substantiate
an error in the controlled (and certified as best and delivered to the end users) code ....... now we are bug tracking till we can figure out
what is going on.
Meanwhile, back to our original chaos. Clearly this is going to take computer resources and bandwidth so I think we need a plan to
formally present to Sun (assuming we go after OpenOffice as the biggest target of opportunity, in the interests of full disclosure I shall
admit that I have identified OpenOffice as a huge target of opportunity to the Wikipedia community in exchange for their assistence
helping us get started with their operational (in my opinion) BETA code. Not the active development stuff. Simply this, a lot of desktop
users will get acquainted with their interface and be zipping to Wikipedia chasing a link regarding esoteric computer science when no
busy grandmaster chooses to waste his time writing out precise correct definitions or concepts more than once or twice. He will simply
enter it Wikipedia and then use quite easily as thus [[parser]] (ok tk, you got me. It was the grammars or dialects at the
front
end that I see which is different.) Better yet he can simply link to the term or concept and if it is standard but not there then perhaps
someone will put it in or a neophyte such as myself will dig out a book and learn something attempting to paraphrase the merge of three
explanations the search engine turned.
The improvements in education, vocabulary, and synergistic cooperation as feebly illustrated above do not appear very efficient. I do not
know how you would calculate the derivatives but I do know that projects/programs that manage to leverage efficiently off of each others
strengths to cover weaknesses while also improving or eliminate the weakness achieve a synergy and productivity that allows
apparent miracles. Hence the chalkboard that everybody finds so funny. .... and yes, we seem to want a miracle. Everybodies pet
project fixed or contributed to or polished at the same time by fairly ignorant volunteers doing as they please when they please.
Somebody may decide it is efficient to setup an appropriate language seminar, or tutorial. Keep in mind all the data is in the archives
and backups. An opportunistic quality engineer and technical guru such as goingware may decide to setup a quality testing
seminar or an outline of the types of products and coding techiniques he thinks avoids problems. I may totally disagree and provoke a
public argument and challenge him to our first massive fork in the code base ..... not the project. If the code is modular and specified
and correct we should be able to exchange the affected modules. There is some more framework development and coding there so
unless somebody volunteers or somebody (or a team) manages to write up a coherent propopal (a pitch, winning persuasive presentation)
and find the right people to provide it to there is little chance we are getting far here.
Still we are in our own little space self educating ourselves (we impatient desktop users and language deficient script kiddies who
gravitate to the chaos) with a little drop in help from some experts to mediate complex technical discussion or drop hints when it seems
warranted.
But where is the original developer team you ask? You did not really think that they are going to think an initially small group leading to
a massive wave of fed up users and script kiddies with a little help from a publicity seeking wikipedia, a quality project that is falling on
deaf ears, a weird idea that even civilians can use top end DOD extravagance if the proposer (that is me) does not have to pay for it and is
not responsible for anything at all whatsoever, can accomplish anything do you? Ok, so there is fork three and the voting can
commence as soon we can work out the manual methods while waiting for the developers or our hard studying colleagues to get the
framework up properly to automate crosschecking.
So as interested parties sufficient to succeed we have:
Sun Microsystems for hardware, bandwidth, expertise?
The developers
Bomis (or Magnus, lead phpwiki script developer) Wikipedia for the ether we will live and breath occasionally
Quality project initiated by goingware if he feels like sitting around and coaching occasionally when and where he chooses to show up
instead of preaching all the time.
Linux certification folks might be interested in working with us to setup for us to help draft certification in languages or linux as required.
May need license consulting if code is OSD, wiki environment is GPL's. We will be mixing data and code in the walkthoughs,
dialogues, tutorials, documentation, and whatever else someone whips .... remember in the wiki anything goes until we manage to setup
a charter and self government. Wikipedia is only getting around to this now after a year as they have hit critical mass and it matters
now.
Participatory users
Spectators
Larger community drop in.
Maybe we pick up some help from various advogatees who wish to see this beast and marvel at it different views or perhaps they will go
advocate for us when we look successfully enough that they should take credit for launching the bandwagon.
Now, all we have to do is flesh this thing out a bit and see if there is something to make everybody happy and the technical gurus after
explaining why none of this will really work, can tell us how it is done properly. If we do not know we can always admit and go ask some
experts for their opinions. The debate about why it really wrong may stimulate someone finding a correct approach.
It we were in the wiki environment we could start teaming up around various points of view and refining the talking papers while trying
some of the techniques out. We would be missing the chaos from total neophytes but I could probably scare up 3 or 4 on short notice
if we want some realism in the proposal development or program conceptualization phase.
I am forgetting something ..... ah!
Everybody sees the problem of course. It will work after initiated. It is merely a matter of attracting enough college students and retire
systems engineers. But it has to be working well enough that the engineers think it will attract the manpower necessary or they will not
be interested. Meanhwhile the students will wander in, sit around and do nothing for a bit, and wander off. Sufficient people to make
the environment interesting initially is absolutely essential. Perhaps with sponsorship and sanctioned occasional participation of their
paid professionals during regular business hours from Sun and Bomis we could pull it off. Perhaps if we set up the training courses
initially we could attract interest from other high employee count companies. I am uncertain.
I think we should approach SCORE (retired executives) as well. If there is anything that motivates the under 25 crowd like being told by
an old fart that their ideas will not work I have not yet discovered. Some of those guys are pretty good at this.
I guess we need more data. Wikipedia seems to have managed to get initiated while my little experiment has had meager results.
Anybody see a way to collect empirical hard data to clarify things further?
Now that we have the tiny meaningless stuff and the grand and glorius stuff out of the way, anybody have some small to mediums to chat
about? mirwin
While the interface to getting bugs in an interesting topic, it is a
bit off topic. (coming from someone who loves to go off topic) 8^)
Getting bug reports of somekind doesn't seem to be a problem.
Management of the bug reports could use some work, from your comments
above.
I still have serious doubts that developers will fix the uniteresting
bugs and would like to keep on that track. I know you can't do it
all. I'm very sympathetic. Perhaps uninteresting bugs get
addressed more with a higher profile project like Mozilla? Perhaps
somekind of kudos/reward system for fixing bugs would be appropriate?
It's rumored that hacks of that gruntwork-kind are well well regarded
but who is actually dishing out the kudos for such work? Anyone? Is
this an area to address?
I have my doubts that throwing money at a problem is the answer. If
bug bounties were successful wouldn't the incentive be to generate
bugs to fix? I know that sounds overly simplistic.
In that vein.... Lets compare products. M$ & others have money (or
cash flow at least) and do not generally make better products. Money
doesn't make you make better products does it? I'm being a Devil's
Advocate here, but I don't see a huge leap in bug-killing coming from
cash. Especially since cash is not a commodity abundantly available
to us.
Has anyone actually run any analysis on some of the startups using the community developed commons to calculate an ROI back to the
community of original developers? Do we have corporate executives taking care of us as stakeholders? Perhaps Microsoft
stakeholders
are not the only parasites around.
Comments, posted 24 Feb 2002 at 06:23 UTC by nymia »
(Master)
IMO, one way to mitigate newbie/enduser frustration is to provide some
sort of notification, saying particular software is not guaranteed to
work 100%, errors may occur anytime.
Another one that I had some experience was the implementation of some
sort of error handler that fires off an email to the bug-list. Or an
error logger writing to a text file.
It is definitely tougher to manage bugs in the open source world since
developers are not insulated from the endusers. Given the situation, it
is best that expectations are clearly stated from the beginning so that
endusers aren't misled by false information.
The Mozilla problem?, posted 24 Feb 2002 at 10:53 UTC by tk »
(Observer)
Mozilla seems to have a different problem -- many bugs simply don't
get resolved.
So it seems I wasn't correct when I said that there is a fair amount of
intersection
between the concerns of developers and those of ordinary users. I'm not
sure if it's
just me, but I get the impression that the developers of Mozilla are
more
interested in going for meetings, creating new browser themes, etc. than
doing
real, solid stuff.
Perhaps this is because the Mozilla project isn't something that people
(either
developers or users) will have a vested interest in: it's more of a
showcase for the
bazaar development model, and not a very successful one at that. There
are so
many existing browsers out there that to most people (including
developers),
the Mozilla project will be among the last places to look. Thus it can
be expected
that most Mozilla developers won't be interested in fixing
`uninteresting'
problems.
So it may really be this: the ability of an open-source project to
handle bugs
is partly determined by the nature of the project itself. Generally,
a project
which people are really going to use, rather than just toy around with,
will have
its bugs fixed more quickly -- this is because some of these people will
themselves
be developers, and it'll be in their own interests to fix those boring
bugs out
there.
Projects like Linux, Apache, X, etc. have come such a long way partly
because
people are using them for mundane computing tasks on a day-to-day basis.
I had a think about this. I came up with far too much, so I'll attempt
to summarise.
The single thing that makes me report bugs is the feeling they're actually
wanted. One of the very first bug reports I made was extremely trivial:
a typo fix and changing the order of five characters in the default
Muttrc shipped with Mutt. I got two replies from two developers both
thanking me and the next version of Mutt shipped with it.
And I really felt I'd made a difference, trivial as it was. Inspired, I
started sending more, all over the place. Some were fixed, some were
ignored, some were flamed, some were marked WONTFIX, some were passed
elsewhere, and some were my fault. So I've had a fairly wide experience
of reactions.
Ways to stop users sending bug reports:
- Ignore bug reports
- Ask for further information without telling the user what
commands to use to provide it
- Mark WONTFIX with no explanation
- Flame the user. Bonus points for in public, referring to
standards without explaining what they are and why the user should
have known this since birth
- Make fun of the user (not the same as flaming, but just as
effective)
- Flame the software the "just shoved in the CD and installed" user
is using. Compilers are particularly good for this. After all, everyone
should have to replace the compiler their distro provided and
actually supports.
- Don't incorporate patches
- Don't explain why a patch is wrong
- Make it impossible for the user to tell which program is at fault
- For software used in countries where access is charged by the
minute, ensure they must be online and faced with a bug-tracker that is
mystifying and takes some minutes to load in order to send a report.
- Don't tell the user what other software might be involved and thus
that it is worth providing the versions of those too.
- Put bug-reporting details only in /usr/(share/)doc/app*/README.
After all, every user should check this, info app, man app, the webpage,
the FAQ, app --help, app --version and the about box as a matter of
routine.
- Ensure user doesn't know whether the report is going to a single
person, a mailing list, a newsgroup, an archived group, a website or
/dev/null, so that they feel too nervous about their potentially "I
did this all wrong" problem to mention it in public.
Ways to encourage users to send bug reports should be obvious from
the above. I shall, however, try to write something more useful than
that soon.
I get the impression that the developers of Mozilla are more
interested in going for meetings, creating new browser themes, etc. than
doing real, solid stuff.
That's a very broad statement :-) Some people are interested in making
themes, it's true. Other people aren't. In fact, we have very few
working themes (fingers of one hand) at the moment.
There are so many existing browsers out there that to most people
(including developers), the Mozilla project will be among the last
places to look.
What other cross-platform browsers are there out there? Opera, perhaps,
but it's neither free nor Free, and its DOM support is terrible. The
Mozilla project certainly wasn't the last place the Galeon developers
looked, anyway.
If you want good reasons to develop web pages with Mozilla, check out
the DOM
Inspector and Javascript Debugger.
Generally, a project which people are really going to use, rather
than just toy around with, will have its bugs fixed more quickly
I agree with this statement; but what makes you think a browser is a
project people aren't really going to use? The Mozilla project fixes
approximately 1,500 open bugs every five weeks, which sounds like a
pretty good rate to me.
Anyway, getting back on topic - Telsa, thanks very much
for your very interesting comments. Believe me, I'll be measuring our
bug systems against them this evening and seeing how we measure up :-)
Gerv
Steve, the lack of integrity you cite is a far worse defect than the maligned insects we are attempting to encourage to play safe
and return to
sender to tattle on allegedly responsible oversight. I am far from perfect so I advocate mercy whenever possible but I would not propose
to tempt a
convicted molester by leaving her alone in charge of the next wave of far scouts and explorers. Have to do more of the accounting do see
more of the
possibilities, synergies and avoid liabilities alleged nepharios conspritors and/or the universe in sending in valentines to keep you
interested, alive and
getting more interesting all the time. An executive uncle of mine took a weyerhauser subsidiary from deep red to breakeven in less than
a year by
refusing delivery of defective supplies and rubbing elbows and/or squinting appropriately with the drivers, markeeting and vps of corrupt
supply chains.
Less than a year later plant was in the black for the remainder of his employment there. He seemed to travel a lot as a consultant to
other wayerhauser
operations and projects.
----
Excellent points nymia. A note. Be sure the user understands what the error initiation cycle is, knows how to turn it off and/or
design its
routing list themselves. They may be more comfortable that adequate oversite is in place if they can add echelon, Tom Ridge, and other
appropriate
designated drop points and/or public serveants, buddies and/or communities to prevent a hostile takeover of their computer. Personally,
I think losing
one of my portables for the few hours/days it would take to get it restored would be an incredibly low operating expense to turn in the
contribution of
identifying a spy, child molestor, saboteur, Easter Egg bandit/vandals, preemptive patent and copyright fraud, legal harrassment etc.
The intense
frustration and years regaining solvency engendered by these cowardly anonymous assassins and femnazis creates enough brain
damage in our population
at the top that the fallout at the bottom is not addressed. The North American Quack Associations and support groups all have serious
combat fatigue.
I watched pushers and negligent/exhausted people who allegedly took a Hipprocratic Oath to first do no harm preparing for mass suicide
and/or wealthy
early retirement to enjoy or end remembering their incompetents as their "self selected" tasks. This allegedly suicide of only "honest"
employee of Enron
smells, quacks, looks, feels and tastes like a dog turd placed on a massive coverup/fraud ranging all through and around enron and up to
the top panels
or staffs of alleged USA USG. Why are they afraid to show their homework? I provide realtime data and analsyis of my flaws,
impulses,
conceits, self
agrandasment, fantsay enty points, pretend targets, real targets etc. etc. and invite collaboration in how to analyze and attempt self
healing to as much of
hte planet as possible for as long as we can access the data. We will learn something from this eventually that will allow the medicine
people to begin
improving their techniques and how to shield vulnerable people from more damage faster than they can heal and stay afloat. It would be
nice if the
employees could at least refrain from vandalism while stripping the larder, safe, etc. here in the USA and abroad.
Medically engineers and real healers will do us little good while the representatives and top management are treated
with
the simple
elegance and meager standards available at Walter Reed while the rest of the population is exposed to mass murder, negligence and
unmonitored
experimentation on duped civilians and militarly professionals under direct orders to step up and be experimented on while
assuring incompetent
quack command (she must need new star for next infestation) they will obviously, of course keep records and data so that
maybe if
chalkboards breed themselves to sentient babysitters some solutions can be found to keep some of our 300K from the Gulf War alive
until
can be
dispersed (bodies buried) in the wider public view nobody uses. I must have my privacy! Everybody must cut eyeballs out and blank
memories so
nobody see my fashion shoes closet. Oh! Excellent ROI for some. See Queen Elizabeth balancing the monarchies budget by ordering
the Empirial fleet
after success to remain achored. No shore leave allowed and no supplies shipped. No discharge fee or back wages required as no
such thing as death
benefits. We shall be comparing and contrasting this with the U.S. performance in vietnam and gulf war and see if we can find where the
ROI resulted.
Should make for some interesting allegations and devil's advocacy synergized exponentially. Userwikis are coming in other formats as
a
clan does not
live on software alone.
If I ever get a note from a child who has loved me by taking time from his busy schedule to help me find the joy to design wind tunnels,
skylabs,
espionage simulations, space camps, etc. saying a bug/worm{defect/criminal} ate his computer harddrive or data entry form before he
could hit return
and also erased all his known backups .... My QA people are going to be interested because I am going to be a bit intrigued. I may have
to sleep a
couple of days after inital data entry or hike the high desert breezeways singing battle hyms and playing the harmonica and/or keyboard
at my projected
spacecamp, skylab, engine simulater canal (alleged, have to do dimensional analsysis to verfity percieved simularities ..... if incorrent
then must finally do
tensor work to lean how to capture images triggered by fantasy inputs, see boundary layer turbulent flow theory and reference old
methods of inside out
symmetry calculations to calculate combustion chamber flows in gaseous nuclear reactors and/or NERVA ...... heat flow and mass
dispersion, by
recirculated the design mixture at the boundary layer one can run much higher tempatures in the core {h2/lox, nerva, gaseous, .....
??antimatter?? I love
enterprise, a lot of outstanding work and very little looks wrong or boring. History, art, and reality fading into R&D aspects of black
yondering, hee
ha standing salute and public accolades (here and later wiki, almost finished see? ) to sing the public public love song and design
delivery
system ala love
canal hacker plan/project requesting an accounting to achieve balance. See Steve Miller and Sharon, Agent of Change,
Conflict
of Honors
series.
----
Go back and mark top inital draft requires some serious hack attacks (appropriately combat chattered and carbon collaterated with
chaotically
overlappling venn diagrams and prototyped procedures and phase lead/lag circuity inserted carefully in places OK
Your children are of course, as per the alleged USA Constitution/public consensus, your private property to prostitute to sadists as you
wish ...... or
whim or ignorance or whatever ........ privacy ... first refuge of a scounderal or merely dishonest un self disciplined people apparently
incapable or
unwilling of love? There is no fundamental human rights until we, the people, the clans of man, the sentients of the universe, decide to
make it so;
shouldering necessary burdens with sufficient love to create new universal law or rough appearances of gain towards until we get their.
Consider that I
was trained as engineering physicist. Old bench seduction joke. I can be practical if necessary, I think not, critical mass has been
achieved and is
dispersing sufficiently. We play well and joyfully with proper care and diligence sufficient to make mentors proud and happily amused,
and we win.
Enemies will melt own brains just as promised by OZmandias. That appears fairly clear to me even though I am zoning a bit. Note
the date, check
with rirwin, subtley if you can to see if he thinks I am acting abnormally. Ask Major Tom what he thinks, he explained the space shuttle
Challenger
fiasco to me in terms I could understand while I was still grumpily ignorant and extremely disappointed/frustrated. What the hell, I play
safe a little while
longer. Go back and mark top inital draft requires some serious hack attacks.
----
tk The developers feel unappreciated and harnessed. What should we expected. I posted public notice at wikipedia that I for
one expect
some ROI on the massive speculative investment completed by real hackers to top priority. When someone hands you a few
billion in
intellectual capital for free a non parasite might consider providing some lunch money to someone somewhere in an appropriate way as
per their own
vision of schemes of things. When we get first transparent public utility online at wikipedia (Or fork if owners like their tools the way they
are, Sanger
and Jimbo are no fools, they are going slow enough to get something right I would tell you more but I need to use to check answers on
essays prior to
publication) to finance very necessary expansion and provide lunch money to productive contributors. Contributors can alway pass on
and report so or
not however they choose. I personally am going to prematurly take piggy bank of plastic 12 ounze? full of change found laying around in
streets of USA
(true, gold linings?) down and invest in the new Boise Spanish Cultural Center. We have an extensive local Basque community and I am
sure all herre
can see clearly the implications of venn diagrams and alleged possible business markets above in Mondragon. Unless realtime events
have obliterated
opportunity. Plan check do research me too you?
----
Wow! Telsa!Excellent researcher, massive data dump. Ok, I sorry for explicit harshness and I will attempt a more colleaguial air
when
attempting to discuss
this stuff rationally in the future. Wikipedia is an excellent learning lab for collaborative editing. We need to get their attribution system
fixed though so
it tracks everything. The researcher babbling about some unknown license where he keeps all credit and denies all assistance
contributed is partially
correct. Scientists, researchers, and everyone else who wants tracking data on their contributions for whatever purposes should have it.
It is
motivational and when depressed provide self therapy entry point to cycle back and review accomplishments. If cannot do something
big,
and can not
sleep, it helps to have some critical work that is fairly trivial and routine to do while blasted back in the launch seats listening to the joyful
roars of our
artisks on the FMs/CDs/MPs/etc. overlaying the turbulent purr of our upgraded reverse engineered F1s aimed high. Some of the
researchers need the
attribution data (even anonymous zeros are data, arithmetic not very good until nought was made up) for some critical ongoing research
into various
types of brain disorders.
----
gerv Defects breed faster than scapegoated species bugs in complex systems. New defects are introduced attempting to fix
old defects in
poorly structured projects. Good history lesson that is applicable. Stealing the B29 Superfortress. This plane was concurrently
engineering by
craftsmen and engineers and all else necessary and sufficient to produce an incredible leap in aircraft technology. They did it primarily
with personal
tools available in the stone age. All other means of production of tools and war materiel was saturated with keeping logistics channels
to all expanding
fronts saturated with the food, supplies, and tools created and sent to the men at the front lines with love from supporting free
communities.
----
mirwin